Shrinking Season 2 is an unmistakable triumph—a brilliant, profoundly thought-provoking series with creators who care about telling honest, human stories. It’s been a blast to cover each episode, but it’s also an incredible bonus to sit with one of the writers and executive producers to discuss the show’s latest season.
In our recent interview, Neil Goldman sat down with Gissane Sophia to talk about the show’s second season, the performances, and how some scenes came to be.
Lady Geeks Media: I wanted to preface this by saying I had such a visceral reaction to the ending of these episodes [“The Drugs Don’t Work” and “The Last Thanksgiving“] that I had to go sob in the shower, so no one would hear me. Basically, from the end of the penultimate to the finale, I don’t think I stopped crying at any point.
Neil Goldman: We actually like to hear that! It’s good to hear that it was effective for you.
Lady Geeks Media: Going off of that, then, what is the most rewarding aspect of being a part of this show [Shrinking] that’s having such a huge impact on people while making them laugh and simultaneously allowing them to understand that asking for help isn’t a weakness?
Neil Goldman: What’s great to hear is that the intent is certainly to portray that life can get pretty dark but that there is always [hopefully] a light to be found even in those dark moments. So, in that sense, without sounding too pretentious, it’s a little bit of a metaphor for that idea [of light] and, more specifically, that the light is often to be found in community. [Pauses, smiles] And that community is to be found in the least likely of places—or more unexpected places. I think it’s fitting that the show has a lot of diversity in many respects, in terms of ethnicities but also, in terms of race, age, socioeconomic backgrounds, and they have found this little community. It is a found family.
And now Louis is kind of, by the end [hopefully], if he doesn’t become a permanent member, then at least he benefited tangentially from the community these people have found. So, it’s always rewarding when the intent seems to pay off. When the audience is picking up on things that you intended, and they’re reacting the way you hoped they would and feeling the way you hoped they’d feel—and that includes being happy or, for lack of a better term, to put it very simply, being sad.
Sometimes, we joke here as we plot out the episodes or outline them—especially when it comes to our endings—with: is this one happy, happy, sad? Is this one happy, sad, uh-oh? Is this one uh-oh, sad, happy? It becomes a shorthand for us to make sure that we stick the landing as best as possible with respect to these endings and mixing things up.
Lady Geeks Media: That’s incredible! Well, to piggyback from that with plotting and drafting. From the first episode of [Shrinking Season 2], how much has changed in the outline process to the finale? Whether it was something the actors brought in or something shifted along the way. Did you guys shift anything at any point, or was this the plan from beginning to end?
Neil Goldman: The broad strokes were certainly planned from beginning to end. Finding out where those key moments land across the spectrum of episodes is one of the bigger challenges we face in pre-production. We do try to have a big-picture map of what those moments are and a decent sense of where they land [in terms of episode number] by the time we start writing. Otherwise, you run the risk of writing a bridge to nowhere.
The other part of your question—there is so much talk and so much discussion for this show before a single word is even written. Sometimes, we do things on the fly.
[Laughs] You know what was on the fly? Jimmy’s encounter with Sofi, who’s played by Cobie Smulders. That was not necessarily something we planned on doing this year—it was more that when we were writing what we called “The Birthday Episode for Alice” and thinking about what could happen. Some of it was purely practical because there’s only so much interesting storytelling that one can do in terms of [planning] a birthday party for someone without it feeling too sitcom-y. With some exceptions, we try to make things feel as real as possible without falling into the pattern of tropes that we’ve all indulged [in] in the past. That was an idea that actually Bill [Lawrence] had—he has many of these ideas—where it was like: “Let’s find something deeper and personal and unexpected for Jimmy,” as he’s in the pursuit of trying to find this present for Alice.
And while we had the idea of what this potential love interest for Jimmy would be like—that it’d be very stop-and-start in the beginning or maybe, the first time he met [this person], he would screw it up, not follow through, not ask her out. Other than that, we had no idea where it would land, and it was only as we were talking about it that this felt like an organic place to stick it in.
Lady Geeks Media: Yeah, and I mean all the How I Met Your Mother fans it brings in—it’s incredible.
Neil Goldman: [Laughs] Yeah, I got a little sense on Twitter that a lot of people were really excited by it. Some, I think it [the reactions] were very tongue in cheek, or they were put off by it because of their relationship in How I Met Your Mother, which was super platonic. But they [Smulders and Segel] have great chemistry because they are very good friends in real life. So, she [Smulders] was the first person to pop into Jason’s [Segel] head when we said we were going to be doing this story.
Lady Geeks Media: And all of this is a testament to the performers because when I watch this show, any time I look at them in this role, they aren’t the characters I know them as. Like I don’t look at Harrison Ford and think that’s Indiana Jones or Han Solo. He’s Paul here. So, the same goes for Jason Segel.
Neil Goldman: That is also great to hear because obviously, in casting all these people who are instantly recognizable and we have all these associations with—and by the way, Brett [Goldstein] is another great example of that—right off the bat, we’re always hesitant. Hesitant is way too strong of a word because when Harrison Ford wants to do your show, you don’t say “no.” You jump for joy, but our concern [and that’s also too strong of a word], but even Harrison’s [Ford] concern was how to transcend. How do we write a character for him that he could fully inhabit and make people forget who he is and what else he’s done? It’s nice that this seems to be the broad consensus.
Lady Geeks Media: Well, speaking of Harrison Ford, I can’t imagine how people are going to react to Paul’s speech. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like—that one’s a collaborative episode between you, Bill Lawrence, and Brett Goldstein. What was it like writing that part that’s so raw and real and knowing that Harrison Ford would deliver it? And have you seen the final cut? How did you react to that?
Neil Goldman: I did, yeah. It was an amazing performance, and I think we’re tapping into—to some degree—consciously, to some real feelings Harrison [Ford] may be having in his own career. He’s often said that whether by accident or because of some conversations with him or, whether subconsciously on our part, we’re tapping into some things that are raw for him, so it’s not hard for him to access.
[Smiles] Those deeper feelings and the tears are oftentimes very real. A) because he’s a wonderful actor and B) because he’s accessing something that speaks to him. I can’t speak for Brett [Goldstein] and Bill [Lawrence], and all these episodes are truly group efforts, but they [Goldstein and Lawrence] do have this extra stamp on this one [“The Last Thanksgiving“] because they’ve both spoken about their experiences with parents who’ve unfortunately been dealing with Parkinson’s. And so, those guys are also tapping into something from the outside [as a son, as a friend, as a member of their own communities within their family] whose prognosis isn’t great, and they’re grappling with—if not their literal mortality—then the idea that they’re not gonna be themselves.
They really wanted that to land and for it to be emotional, and as we expected, it was just very easy for Harrison [Ford] to access that immediately. He’s just been incredible this year and last year, too, but this year, he really feels like he’s made the character his own, and it’s a joy to write for him—not just the big emotional stuff, but comedically. [Laughs] He very often says it exactly how we imagined him saying it, without us giving him any direction. That’s kind of how mind-melded we really are to him right now.
As you mentioned, the show can make you laugh or cry, and often, I think [in my experience] he’s one of the main conduits of, even in the same scene, where he’s making you laugh out loud and giving you that lump in your throat.
Lady Geeks Media: And I imagine that the reactions the rest of the characters were having at that moment were probably real because the first time I watched that scene, I couldn’t stop crying so I didn’t pay attention. [Laughs] I had to rewatch it because I was like, “You didn’t hear a word out of his mouth because you were just sobbing.”
Neil Goldman: That’s very perspective of you becuase I think that was very much the case. Jessica [Williams] and Jason [Segel] listening to him—both [in character] and also knowing that to some degree, Harrison [Ford] is speaking about his own thing—the personal side of it. Everybody was very touched on set that day.
Lady Geeks Media: Last question: What was the hardest aspect of writing this episode that maybe wasn’t coming to you as easily, and what was the most so seamless?
Neil Goldman: It’s all very hard, I have to say. It’s the hardest show I’ve ever worked on. I’ve been lucky enough to work on a lot of shows, and —animation, single camera, multi camera. This show is more difficult because of all the…[Pauses] Even Bill Lawrence—who’s got more experience than I do and is way better at it than I am—will often say this is the hardest show he’s ever done. It takes a lot of effort to make it seem [hopefully] as natural as it does, but the thing that worked is the ending. You can speak about it better as a viewer.
We saw some comments online [and it seems odd to say], but we were glad that people were worried about Louis, especially after Episode 8 when Jimmy gave his rather insincere apology and forbade Louis from seeing his daughter. That new connection that he’d made was healing for him and for Alice, so people were worried about him, and we wanted to take you on a little [journey] from that point forth of where it seemed like he was doing okay and then gets another gut punch. We also set up I think it’s in Episode 10, where he tells Alice that he’s had some dark thoughts there [at the train station].
The [last] scene and the [last] shot of the finale—that Bill [Lawrence] directed so well—because most of the time, the way you picture something is not the way it shows up for various reasons, either because of a different line read or location, but that last scene at the train station was what we planned for it to be. It’s what we hoped and prepared for, and I thought Jason [Segel] and Brett [Goldstein] knocked it out of the park with their acting, and Bill [Lawrence] knocked it out of the park with his directing.
[Emphatically] It’s just a moment I was certainly very pleased with when I watched it.
Lady Geeks Media: Thank you so much for talking to me. I can’t wait for people to watch this episode [Shrinking Season 2, Episode 12, “The Last Thanksgiving”]. I really feel like it’s what people need nowadays, so I can’t wait to see their reactions. And congratulations to all of you, really. This season is just—[Pauses]—no words. There’s no sophomore slump, just aces all around.
Neil Goldman: We [really] appreciate it. Thank you very much!
Shrinking Season 2 is now streaming on Apple TV+.